Naruto [Spoilers]

[Sasuke]

yeah...20v1 isnt something to brag about..but to each his own <.< and I've heard the group being called Golden Horn in other scanlations too. Not specifically a bounty hunter group, but perhaps a group of shinobi from Kumo regardless. Maybe Nidaime's group was doing some recon, who knows.

[Mikaru]

So wait, was the third with Iwa?

First with Kumo, then who the heck was the 2nd with?

[sai]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this bit of information from the first fanbook. The good thing is that we did get most of the details right in the current incarnation of the NRP.

2nd World War - apparently Iwa, Konoha and Suna were involved since the big three did fight over the territory/country that Amegakure was based in.

3rd World War - Iwa and Konoha were involved in defending the territory/country that Kusagakure was based in. Presumably Kumo was also involved since a peace treaty was signed when Hinata's birthday came along.

This wiki article appears to be the most reliable one that explains how the 2nd war came about. I think the information in the background came from the second fanbook but I can't seem to find the particular translation anywhere yet. Nagato did imply that the 2nd war was started by Konoha or something to that effect.

[Samanosuke]

for Kumo; this was probably during the war that they were talking about where one Kumo shinobi tried to kidnap Hinata when she was an infant or something like that. At least I think so but it would have to be a very long war because Sarutobi looks no more than 25-ish if so much.

Also, Sai is right about the 20 vs. 1 not being something to brag about xP Especially since they never said how many people the Nidaime killed out of those 20. If it was the majority then Kumo's "Legendary Golden Horn" isn't much to talk about seeing that it did take 20 of them to kill one guy. =P Who didn't even have a bloodline limit mind you

'

20 vs 1 isn't something to brag about... And I think the scanlation took liberties with 'master bounty hunter' since other translations called the tracking squad 'golden horn'.

Whut? What are talking about that 20 vs 1 isn't something to brag about?! This was a bounty that has bragging rights all over it, a mission bounty perhaps classified as an S rank in the Black Bingo book. The legendary "Golden Horn" squad just killed the Second Hokage, who was one of the most TALENTED ninja to ever utilized the Water Element then any Kiri Ninja I know and brother of the Legendary First Hokage. Your going to tell me 20 vs 1 isn't something to brag about...? Then what about all those other battles that involved handicap for example.

Sakura and Chiyo vs 100 (Or was it 1000??) Of Sasori's puppets which was said to have taken down an entire country alone. <--- This is bragging rights because Sakura and Chiyo manage to defeat Sasori by a thread while said country failed.

Yondiame Hokage vs X number of Iwa ninjas and killed them all under15 seconds.<--He was handy cap yet he won

Seriously look at this beast in action!

Spoiler

Nidiame Hokage was still considered a genius during his reign so I wouldn't be surprise if these bounty hunters were smart and didn't take their target lightly. He was a formidable opponent, twenty ninjas to kill one big bounty is all but fair especially since the 2nd Hokage was very skilled. Just like the saying "Fight an Uchiha One on One you run, Fight an Uchiha with two people take the sides".

Even if the entire squad Nidiame had under him would have lost, thats why they needed a decoy in the first place.

Golden Horn = Win

[Sasuke]

Originally Posted by Samanosuke

'

Whut? What are talking about that 20 vs 1 isn't something to brag about?! This was a bounty that has bragging rights all over it, a mission bounty perhaps classified as an S rank in the Black Bingo book. The legendary "Golden Horn" squad just killed the Second Hokage, who was one of the most TALENTED ninja to ever utilized the Water Element then any Kiri Ninja I know and brother of the Legendary First Hokage. Your going to tell me 20 vs 1 isn't something to brag about...? Then what about all those other battles that involved handicap for example.

Sakura and Chiyo vs 100 (Or was it 1000??) Of Sasori's puppets which was said to have taken down an entire country alone. <--- This is bragging rights because Sakura and Chiyo manage to defeat Sasori by a thread while said country failed.

Yondiame Hokage vs X number of Iwa ninjas and killed them all under15 seconds.<--He was handy cap yet he won

Seriously look at this beast in action!

Spoiler

Nidiame Hokage was still considered a genius during his reign so I wouldn't be surprise if these bounty hunters were smart and didn't take their target lightly. He was a formidable opponent, twenty ninjas to kill one big bounty is all but fair especially since the 2nd Hokage was very skilled. Just like the saying "Fight an Uchiha One on One you run, Fight an Uchiha with two people take the sides".

Even if the entire squad Nidiame had under him would have lost, thats why they needed a decoy in the first place.

Golden Horn = Win

All this tells me is that you're fanboying your brains out. Since when did we say anything about Sakura or Yondaime? We're talking about a group of 20 people vs 1 person. Like sai and so-ri have said, we dont know the specifics of what happened in this battle, as well as the location of this area (I think, I could be wrong here). For all we know, the squad was doing recon in Kumo or they were going out for ice cream at Kusa's most popular ice cream parlor.

Also, you're stating obvious facts that dont really even matter to this little discussion. "The legendary "Golden Horn" squad just killed the Second Hokage, who was one of the most TALENTED ninja to ever utilized the Water Element then any Kiri Ninja I know and brother of the Legendary First Hokage." Yes, we know now from this chapter that Golden Horn killed the Second Hokage, who uses the water element and is the brother of the First Hokage...

Plus, all the examples you're giving are with people who have emerged victorious when at a disadvantageous number. Im going to be the dumb one here and just ask, what does "Just like the saying "Fight an Uchiha One on One you run, Fight an Uchiha with two people take the sides" have to do with 20 people fighting 1 person? Is it just another way of you saying how skilled Nidaime was?

Try not to state super-facts that we already know when bringing this stuff up/arguing against something we've said Samo, it really doesnt help I think.

[sai]

Sasori v. Sakura and Chiyo

1. It was still 1 vs 2 in the Sasori v. Sakura and Chiyo. The puppets were just tools under the control of their puppet masters and they waste their controller's chakra. The puppet fight was essentially a question of quality vs quantity in which most of the 10 puppets used by Chiyo were damaged badly. Most of Sasori's 100 puppets were either damaged or destroyed as well.

2. If you're going to count the puppets it's 101 vs 14 (Chiyo, Ten Puppet, Sakura, Sasori's Mother and Father Puppets). The odds are still considerably better than 20 vs 1.

2. Chiyo said Sasori could have dodged the last blow but he didn't. Considering the fact that Chiyo was poisoned and Sakura was low on stamina and stabbed in the gut, the two would have lost.

Yondaime and 4 Konoha Shinobi v. 50 Iwa Shinobi

1. Yondaime's presence on that particular battlefield was unexpected from the perspective of the Iwa Shinobi. They were expecting to take out the four remaining Konoha Shinobi so their battle preparations would have been centered around that plan. In fact, they were debating whether or not to go all out or play around with the remaining four. When the Konoha Shinobi threw the special kunais, they probably thought that it was a last ditch effort to stave off defeat. Assuming this line of reason, the Iwa Shinobi would have focused on either deflecting or dodging. They wouldn't have expected Yondaime to teleport and start killing until they see the first attack. By the time they got a bearing on the situation, some number of them would have been killed. And by the time they came up with a back-up plan, even more would have been killed. In summary, the Iwa Shinobi were caught by surprise.

2. I highly doubt Yondaime could have thrown the special kunais by himself and used the teleportation technique without the support of the remaining 4 Konoha Shinobi. No matter how you slice it, the odds are still 50 vs 5 which is considerably better than the 20 vs 1 that Nidaime faced. Yondaime could confidently utilize the teleportation technique because he understood that he would get back-up from the other four if something went wrong.

3. While it was implied that Yondaime finished them off quickly, the exact time it took for Yondaime to finish the job is still unknown. Saying it was 15 seconds without much support is stretching it.

Nidaime and Co vs Golden Horn

1. Like Sasuke mentioned, they could have been "doing recon in Kumo or they were going out for ice cream at Kusa's most popular ice cream parlor." And Sasuke, you're right - the location was never specified for the encounter. For all we know, they could have just killed off the majority of Kumo's military force and got caught in a bad situation when returning home. I'd give the Golden Horn credit for being able to surround and cut off the group. That's the reality of war - you could be the strongest in the world but getting caught in a bad tactical situation would spell your end.

2. I'd also give the Golden Horn credit for being quite strong since the idea of ambushing them with Nidaime and Co was ruled out early. All things considered, someone that is cornered completely would fight to the death and would likely do more damage than someone that has an escape route. That is why in most military classics, you give your opponents hope that they can escape and whittle down their numbers as they scramble out. The idea is nicely encapsulated in the film Gattaca where the protagonist "never save anything for the swim back." For all we know, Nidaime could have killed off the entirety of the Golden Horn group before succumbing to his wounds.

As for the Uchiha example, that was just stated to be the best procedure to handle the genjutsu prowess of the Sharingan. Killing a Uchiha one-on-one is doable but you're likely to be screwed if caught in a genjutsu alone. With a partner, the odds would be improved drastically since "if one is caught in the genjutsu, there's one more to go behind the opponent. If they hit the real body, then the genjutsu is unraveled. Even if that's impossible, they can help their partner by canceling the genjutsu themselves." Of course, the tactic is less useful in the face of the Mangekyou but it boosts the odds considerably. As soldiers, you measure your odds carefully before committing to a fight.

[Samanosuke]

All this tells me is that you're fanboying your brains out. Since when did we say anything about Sakura or Yondaime? We're talking about a group of 20 people vs 1 person. Like sai and so-ri have said, we dont know the specifics of what happened in this battle, as well as the location of this area (I think, I could be wrong here). For all we know, the squad was doing recon in Kumo or they were going out for ice cream at Kusa's most popular ice cream parlor..

Fanboying, I'm pointing out examples here. Were you not reading? First of all NOBODY said anything about Sakura and Yondiame, your not getting the picture here are you? The battles that I used as examples were all HANDICAP battles where Yondiame face against X (Perhaps 50) Iwa Ninjas and still won the battle while Sakura fought against 1000 of Sasori''s puppets that destroyed an entire country. The Location of the battle doesn't matter, the fact Nidiame died by twenty skilled bounty hunters ninjas is an achievement and bragging rights. They just ended the Era of the Senju clan officially making Tsunade the last of their bloodline. Even if Nidiame manage to kill 3-4 using his water element jutsus, I'm pretty sure there were survivor that brought Nidiame body for cash in and kept his armor as a trophy.

Also, you're stating obvious facts that dont really even matter to this little discussion. "The legendary "Golden Horn" squad just killed the Second Hokage, who was one of the most TALENTED ninja to ever utilized the Water Element then any Kiri Ninja I know and brother of the Legendary First Hokage."

Yes, we know now from this chapter that Golden Horn killed the Second Hokage, who uses the water element and is the brother of the First Hokage...

Exactly so then by stating the obvious, what is there NOT to brag about that you killed such a skilled ninja?

Plus, all the examples you're giving are with people who have emerged victorious when at a disadvantageous number. Im going to be the dumb one here and just ask, what does "Just like the saying "Fight an Uchiha One on One you run, Fight an Uchiha with two people take the sides" have to do with 20 people fighting 1 person? Is it just another way of you saying how skilled Nidaime was?

The Uchiha are highly skilled Shinobi because they have SharinganHax, Obviously no one is going to be stupid enough to fight an Uchiha one on one (Unless the user is either an Uchiha himself, a Jinchuuriki, or wields some kind bloodline to even the odds ). Nidiame Hokage was the same thing except he was feared for his mastery over water jutsus, no one stupid enough is going to face him alone, not even a bounty hunter. Unless you have a team of Ninjas (A skilled 20 ninjas) that will help you on such a huge bounty will you be assured a hope of victory, basically do whatever it takes to succeed the mission.

Try not to state super-facts that we already know when bringing this stuff up/arguing against something we've said Samo, it really doesnt help I think

Then if you apparently know said facts then i don't see how 20 vs 1 isn't fair+ bragging rights. Orochimaru had the aid of the 1st and 2nd Hokage to defeat Sarutobi so it was 3 against 1, yet he was known for killing the 3rd Hokage.

Sasori v. Sakura and Chiyo

1. It was still 1 vs 2 in the Sasori v. Sakura and Chiyo. The puppets were just tools under the control of their puppet masters and they waste their controller's chakra. The puppet fight was essentially a question of quality vs quantity in which most of the 10 puppets used by Chiyo were damaged badly. Most of Sasori's 100 puppets were either damaged or destroyed as well.

^What? Broken, those Puppets look like they haven't been used for years and are battle ready. Each Puppet is still considered a threat just like any normal shinobi.

2. If you're going to count the puppets it's 101 vs 14 (Chiyo, Ten Puppet, Sakura, Sasori's Mother and Father Puppets). The odds are still considerably better than 20 vs 1.

Still out numbered, 101 vs 14 is even worse then 20 vs 1.

2. Chiyo said Sasori could have dodged the last blow but he didn't. Considering the fact that Chiyo was poisoned and Sakura was low on stamina and stabbed in the gut, the two would have lost.

As you pointed out Sasori had also drained much of his chakra due to using the third Kazekage and the 100 puppet jutsu , even if Sasori had dodge the blow I'm pretty sure Sasori was at his limit as well. It was basically anyone's game.

1. Yondaime's presence on that particular battlefield was unexpected from the perspective of the Iwa Shinobi. They were expecting to take out the four remaining Konoha Shinobi so their battle preparations would have been centered around that plan. In fact, they were debating whether or not to go all out or play around with the remaining four. When the Konoha Shinobi threw the special kunais, they probably thought that it was a last ditch effort to stave off defeat. Assuming this line of reason, the Iwa Shinobi would have focused on either deflecting or dodging. They wouldn't have expected Yondaime to teleport and start killing until they see the first attack. By the time they got a bearing on the situation, some number of them would have been killed. And by the time they came up with a back-up plan, even more would have been killed. In summary, the Iwa Shinobi were caught by surprise.

It's not just that battle as well, the Tsuchikage (Perhaps the current one) ordered to run on sight if they ever caught a glimpse of Konoha's Yellow Flash. This wasn't the first time Minato had a killing spree with Iwa Ninjas.

2. I highly doubt Yondaime could have thrown the special kunais by himself and used the teleportation technique without the support of the remaining 4 Konoha Shinobi. No matter how you slice it, the odds are still 50 vs 5 which is considerably better than the 20 vs 1 that Nidaime faced. Yondaime could confidently utilize the teleportation technique because he understood that he would get back-up from the other four if something went wrong.

Don't forget Nidiame's students were against the idea on letting Nidiame go alone, but Nidiame knew they were going to get killed anyways so rather he made the decision to risk his life to let them escape for the "Future Of Konoha".

3. While it was implied that Yondaime finished them off quickly, the exact time it took for Yondaime to finish the job is still unknown. Saying it was 15 seconds without much support is stretching it.

I cant be over 5 minutes lol. XD

[quote]1. Like Sasuke mentioned, they could have been "doing recon in Kumo or they were going out for ice cream at Kusa's most popular ice cream parlor." And Sasuke, you're right - the location was never specified for the encounter. For all we know, they could have just killed off the majority of Kumo's military force and got caught in a bad situation when returning home. I'd give the Golden Horn credit for being able to surround and cut off the group. That's the reality of war - you could be the strongest in the world but getting caught in a bad tactical situation would spell your end[/QUOTE]

Thank you, thats all i wanted to hear. My argument is finish. I wanted them to least get credit for actually surrounding and having the actual BALLS to risk their life over a bounty.

2. I'd also give the Golden Horn credit for being quite strong since the idea of ambushing them with Nidaime and Co was ruled out early. All things considered, someone that is cornered completely would fight to the death and would likely do more damage than someone that has an escape route. That is why in most military classics, you give your opponents hope that they can escape and whittle down their numbers as they scramble out. The idea is nicely encapsulated in the film Gattaca where the protagonist "never save anything for the swim back." For all we know, Nidaime could have killed off the entirety of the Golden Horn group before succumbing to his wounds.

They never mentioned finding his body so something must have happen.

As for the Uchiha example, that was just stated to be the best procedure to handle the genjutsu prowess of the Sharingan. Killing a Uchiha one-on-one is doable but you're likely to be screwed if caught in a genjutsu alone. With a partner, the odds would be improved drastically since "if one is caught in the genjutsu, there's one more to go behind the opponent. If they hit the real body, then the genjutsu is unraveled. Even if that's impossible, they can help their partner by canceling the genjutsu themselves." Of course, the tactic is less useful in the face of the Mangekyou but it boosts the odds considerably. As soldiers, you measure your odds carefully before committing to a fight. ___

_______

But the Uchiha are still feared as strong ninjas, I used the quote because like a Uchiha which are natural geniuses. Nidiame was at a higher level that he needed to be hunted down by 20 people. ________

[sai]

The Location of the battle doesn't matter, the fact Nidiame died by twenty skilled bounty hunters ninjas is an achievement and bragging rights.

Unless you can translate the actual text from the latest chapter, bounty hunter appears to be a scanlation addendum. Most of the reliable translations that I've seen don't include bounty hunter in it. I can read a little of the kanji so I know for a fact that the group is called Golden Horn from Kumogakure. And location does matter - if they were within 10 km from Kumogakure, extending the length of the battle is unfavorable. If they were 10 km from Konohagakure, the ambush plan proposed could have worked. It's ignorant to say the location of the battle doesn't matter because terrain and weather is a major factor even in real wars. The lopsided Battle of Agincourt was an English victory principally because the English chose the site to be narrow and the recently plowed terrain was muddy from rain which minimized the effectiveness of a French cavalry charge.

Then if you apparently know said facts then i don't see how 20 vs 1 isn't fair+ bragging rights. Orochimaru had the aid of the 1st and 2nd Hokage to defeat Sarutobi so it was 3 against 1, yet he was known for killing the 3rd Hokage.

With all due respect to the strength of both the 1st and 2nd, they were tools. Orochimaru summoned them with a jutsu and most likely contributed chakra to power them. The 1st and 2nd were nothing more than advanced human puppets. The 3rd summoned Emma to back him up so it is arguable whether it is truly 1 vs 1. Emma as a living being generates his own chakra but the summoning technique requires a proportional chakra to the size of the summoned item. Emma could be considered either a tool or an equal participant in the fight between Orochimaru and the 3rd.

[sai]

What? Broken, those Puppets look like they haven't been used for years and are battle ready. Each Puppet is still considered a threat just like any normal shinobi.

I was referring to the aftermath of the battle not how it started. You can have the most mint conditioned tank in the world but that has nothing to do with its capabilities in battle. The aftermath of the puppet vs puppet battle was that most of the puppets on both sides were wretched.

As you pointed out Sasori had also drained much of his chakra due to using the third Kazekage and the 100 puppet jutsu , even if Sasori had dodge the blow I'm pretty sure Sasori was at his limit as well. It was basically anyone's game.

Sasori only needed to dodge and wait for the two to die. The situation with Chiyo and Sakura was not favorable at the time he got stabbed.

Still out numbered, 101 vs 14 is even worse then 20 vs 1.

I have no idea how a ratio of 7.21 is worse than 20... More numbers alter the dynamics of the battle and may boost the coordination between the teammates but the ratio is still worse for Nidaime.

It's not just that battle as well, the Tsuchikage (Perhaps the current one) ordered to run on sight if they ever caught a glimpse of Konoha's Yellow Flash. This wasn't the first time Minato had a killing spree with Iwa Ninjas.

Please avoid extrapolating what the order meant. For all that matters, it could have been for one-on-one scenarios or for the scouts only. Extrapolating the order to mean Minato went on a killing spree is pushing it. And the orders came from the commanders rather than the Tsuchikage himself <- the victim himself indicated this before being offed. While the Tsuchikage was likely the commander in chief, not all orders can be traced back to him.

They never mentioned finding his body so something must have happen.

They never mentioned turning his body into a trophy either. All we know is that Nidaime probably got killed in that particular encounter. What transpired is up to anyone to guess. Nidaime could have killed all of the Golden Horn and humiliated them by raping their dead bodies before dying of his wounds. Your logic is faulty because in the same way, we don't hear of the Golden Horn anymore so the scenario I provided could have been likely as well.

[Samanosuke]

Unless you can translate the actual text from the latest chapter, bounty hunter appears to be a scanlation addendum. Most of the reliable translations that I've seen don't include bounty hunter in it. I can read a little of the kanji so I know for a fact that the group is called Golden Horn from Kumogakure.

Yeah thats how i read it at first in One manga, then i went to Naruto Wiki and i got this.

The Kinkaku Force (金角部隊, Kinkaku Butai) were a special team of at least twenty skilled shinobi from Kumogakure during the time of the First Great Shinobi World War. They tracked down Team Tobirama, Danzō Shimura, Torifu Akimichi, and Kagami Uchiha, trapping them on the battlefield. The Second Hokage sacrificed himself to allow his subordinates to escape.

• Kinkaku (金角) means "Golden Horn." It is apparently the name of a character from the famous story "Journey to the West".

^Was this it?

And location does matter - if they were within 10 km from Kumogakure, extending the length of the battle is unfavorable. If they were 10 km from Konohagakure, the ambush plan proposed could have worked. It's ignorant to say the location of the battle doesn't matter because terrain and weather is a major factor even in real wars. The lopsided Battle of Agincourt was an English victory principally because the English chose the site to be narrow and the recently plowed terrain was muddy from rain which minimized the effectiveness of a French cavalry charge

I didn't mean it like that in a "Terrain advantage" kind of way, I was actually pointing out the situation Nidiame was in that location didn't really matter if he made a decision to risk his life in order to let his students escape.

With all due respect to the strength of both the 1st and 2nd, they were tools. Orochimaru summoned them with a jutsu and most likely contributed chakra to power them. The 1st and 2nd were nothing more than advanced human puppets. The 3rd summoned Emma to back him up so it is arguable whether it is truly 1 vs 1. Emma as a living being generates his own chakra but the summoning technique requires a proportional chakra to the size of the summoned item. Emma could be considered either a tool or an equal participant in the fight between Orochimaru and the 3rd.

If Orochimaru succeeded on resurrecting the 4th, I'm pretty sure Sarutobi would have lost. Seriously for puppets they did a real number of damage on Sarutobi and gave him a really difficult time. I mean dealing wood jutsus and an experience water element user, I would feel sorry for Sarutobi if Orochimaru dropped Yondiame on top of his plate.

I was referring to the aftermath of the battle not how it started. You can have the most mint conditioned tank in the world but that has nothing to do with its capabilities in battle. The aftermath of the puppet vs puppet battle was that most of the puppets on both sides were wretched.

Yet Sakura was still outnumber and had to fight more then 20 before she got to the actual puppeteer.

Sasori only needed to dodge and wait for the two to die. The situation with Chiyo and Sakura was not favorable at the time he got stabbed.

1 Rule of the Shinobi code: Never give in to your emotions and Sasori did just that.

Please avoid extrapolating what the order meant. For all that matters, it could have been for one-on-one scenarios or for the scouts only. Extrapolating the order to mean Minato went on a killing spree is pushing it. And the orders came from the commanders rather than the Tsuchikage himself <- the victim himself indicated this before being offed. While the Tsuchikage was likely the commander in chief, not all orders can be traced back to him.

The only person who ever defeated Yondiame was Madara.

They never mentioned turning his body into a trophy either. All we know is that Nidaime probably got killed in that particular encounter. What transpired is up to anyone to guess.

The point is, If Nidiame never came back to the village then they succeeded on their mission.

[sai]

If Orochimaru succeeded on resurrecting the 4th, I'm pretty sure Sarutobi would have lost. Seriously for puppets they did a real number of damage on Sarutobi and gave him a really difficult time. I mean dealing wood jutsus and an experience water element user, I would feel sorry for Sarutobi if Orochimaru dropped Yondiame on top of his plate.

The third coffin didn't have a number in the manga. It could have very well been the wife of the 3rd. The number 4 showed up in the anime but the contents of the coffin was never confirmed. It could have been the 4th Kazukage who Orochimaru killed recently. We have yet to confirm whether the summoning technique works on people who have their souls in the belly of the death god. As good as the 1st and 2nd were, they were still tools, nothing more to it.

The only person who ever defeated Yondiame was Madara.

Another extrapolation...

2nd Fanbook Translation: The Fourth, who fought the Nine-Tails, also battled Madara that time.

Manga Translation: "There was someone controlling the fox when it attacked the village. A very powerful ninja and without some sort of special power, there would be no way to fight him" -Yondaime

It was never explicitly stated that Yondaime was defeated by Madara. The only thing that we can establish is that Yondaime thought that the Kyuubi's chakra was necessary to improve the odds against Madara. The fact that Yondaime sealed the fox indicates that Madara was either incapable or unwilling to interfere in the sealing process.

Yet Sakura was still outnumber and had to fight more then 20 before she got to the actual puppeteer.

If you count in the manga, Sakura only destroyed one puppet (behind the scenes, who knows) and dodged the rest. The anime tends to exaggerate a lot of the fight scenes. Most of the Sasori's puppets were taken out by Chiyo's puppets according to the manga. It may be true that Sakura was surrounded by 20 of Sasori's puppets when she threw the ball but she also had back-up from one of Chiyo's puppets. During the fight, Sakura had her back being watched by Chiyo. In fact there was one particular instance (Chap 278, Page 08) where Sakura was almost stabbed in the back if not for Chiyo's intervention.

1 Rule of the Shinobi code: Never give in to your emotions and Sasori did just that.

That doesn't help your argument that Sasori would have lost even if he dodged. And it was never explicitly stated why Sasori didn't dodge so again, please avoid making extrapolations. Whether a screw came loose or he was getting sentimental, Sasori lost because he didn't dodge even when he saw the move coming.

[Ryoku]

This is a fanboy argument, Samo. If the entire thing would've been the same, save that the ginyu force came from Iwa instead, you'd not care. Because they came from Kumo, you're having compound orgasms.

20 v 1 is not the same as 104 v 14. If you actually simplify the numbers, you bring 104 v 14 down to 7.4 v 1, which is much more favorable than 20 v 1. Math is your friend much?

Grats to the 20-man cell bringing down 1 man. I would say grats to AIDS for killing the Sage of Six Paths. Hell it didn't even take 1 man to kill the founder of all shinobi-ism. But we don't mention that, because he was at a disadvantage, being that he was dying from a disease. We also shouldn't take into account that the second hokage took on 20 Elite People, probably took a few out (unmentioned) while providing an escape route for several of his own and preventing these 20 people from managing to locate and defeat them.

However, yes Samo. There were 20 people from Kumo. They were able to take down one man, while simultaneously failing to kill others. But they killed this one man. That is epic compared to Sakura winning while being poisoned, or even the Third AND his summon being defeated by one man and two summons. Truly. They used their wholly excessive numbers to overcome a man that was completely incapable of being defeated by anybody but these 20 people. Go team.

Lets forget that a relatively small number of Sand and Sound ninja nearly destroyed ALL of Konoha with full defense. Forget that Zabuza (presumably alone) was nearly able to execute a coup on the Mizukage. Forget that 1 man controlling 7 people was able to destroy Konoha. Nope, these 20 people are pretty badass in being able to kill one person. You're absolutely right.

[Samanosuke]

This is a fanboy argument, Samo. If the entire thing would've been the same, save that the ginyu force came from Iwa instead, you'd not care. Because they came from Kumo, you're having compound orgasms.

Yes sir i am~

However, yes Samo. There were 20 people from Kumo. They were able to take down one man, while simultaneously failing to kill others. But they killed this one man. That is epic compared to Sakura winning while being poisoned, or even the Third AND his summon being defeated by one man and two summons. Truly. They used their wholly excessive numbers to overcome a man that was completely incapable of being defeated by anybody but these 20 people. Go team.

Lets forget that a relatively small number of Sand and Sound ninja nearly destroyed ALL of Konoha with full defense (Surprise Ambush). Forget that Zabuza (presumably alone) was nearly able to execute a coup on the Mizukage (I give him credit for his efforts). Forget that 1 man controlling 7 people was able to destroy Konoha (With the power of a God that took book no jutsu to stop?). Nope, these 20 people are pretty badass in being able to kill one person (Yup, no ambush or Rinnegan hax. Just pure skill~) . You're absolutely right.

Thank you for your input General Sarcasm.

Another extrapolation...

2nd Fanbook Translation: The Fourth, who fought the Nine-Tails, also battled Madara that time.

^Ok so he fought him

Manga Translation: "There was someone controlling the fox when it attacked the village. A very powerful ninja and without some sort of special power, there would be no way to fight him" -Yondaime

^He just admitted his defeat. Yondiame as skilled as he was as the shinobi was not enough to stop Madara, because he didnt have the "Sort of special power." Thats why he sacrifice himself to seal Kyuubi in the first place, to ruin Madara's plan and trust his son with taming the beast (Also explained). It was HIS ONLY option to save the village.

It was never explicitly stated that Yondaime was defeated by Madara. The only thing that we can establish is that Yondaime thought that the Kyuubi's chakra was necessary to improve the odds against Madara. The fact that Yondaime sealed the fox indicates that Madara was either incapable or unwilling to interfere in the sealing process.

That was the ONLY thing he could do and this was perhaps the first time Madara witness the Death God sealing process since this was Yondiame's original jutsu.

That doesn't help your argument that Sasori would have lost even if he dodged. And it was never explicitly stated why Sasori didn't dodge so again, please avoid making extrapolations. Whether a screw came loose or he was getting sentimental, Sasori lost because he didn't dodge even when he saw the move coming.

That still doesn't change the fact he was at his limit as well, again anyone's game.

If you count in the manga, Sakura only destroyed one puppet (behind the scenes, who knows) and dodged the rest. The anime tends to exaggerate a lot of the fight scenes. Most of the Sasori's puppets were taken out by Chiyo's puppets according to the manga. It may be true that Sakura was surrounded by 20 of Sasori's puppets when she threw the ball but she also had back-up from one of Chiyo's puppets. During the fight, Sakura had her back being watched by Chiyo. In fact there was one particular instance (Chap 278, Page 08) where Sakura was almost stabbed in the back if not for Chiyo's intervention.

Just because they didn't show it on panel doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm pretty sure Sakura destroyed more then one puppet (If your referring to Sandiame KazeKage). Just like how they didn't show the sparing battle between Sugetsu and Kisame, if we're going to go by this logic then i could tell you Kisame and Sugetsu didn't really fight and they just one huge conversation reminiscing on old times because they didn't show it on panel. Of course then Sugetsu would say "Oh yeah we didn't finish our game!" because he just remembered his goal.

[Sasuke]

Originally Posted by Samanosuke

Just because they didn't show it on panel doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Lol, are you seriously using this as part of an argument? Just because they didnt show Sasuke butt-pounding Orochimaru, doesnt mean it did or didnt happen. Just because we didnt see Sasuke's 2.5 years of training from Naruto to Naruto: Shippuden doesnt mean it didnt happen either.

Main Point: Dont use "Just because they didnt show it, doesnt mean it didnt happen". Its a bad argument.

[sai]

He just admitted his defeat. Yondiame as skilled as he was as the shinobi was not enough to stop Madara, because he didnt have the "Sort of special power."

I don't know where you learned your English but what part of "A very powerful ninja and without some sort of special power, there would be no way to fight him" means "I lost to him." 'Not enough to stop Madara' doesn't explicitly mean Yondaime lost. For example, the US military force can take out most of the Russian military force in a conventional war. The only reason we don't consider going to war is because of mutually assured destruction via whatever we have stockpiled including nukes. In the same respect the Kyuubi could very much be analogous to a hypothetical countermeasure to nukes.

It was HIS ONLY option to save the village.

'His only option' according to YOU...

That was the ONLY thing he could do

Tell me that after you can read the mind of Kishimoto or have seen what Kishimoto intends to do in the future. Otherwise it is solely YOUR interpretation. It's ignorant to say that the Fourth lost to Madara. For all we know, it might have been a draw in which neither could beat the other. Given the choice of continuing a draw or sealing up a demon that is ravaging your village, I think it's obvious to everyone except you which is more important. While the Fourth said that there was no way to fight Madara without special powers, he didn't say he got his ass handed to him.

and this was perhaps the first time Madara witness the Death God sealing process since this was Yondiame's original jutsu.

2nd Databook

Spoiler

Corpse Demon Consuming Seal (屍鬼封尽, Shiki Fuujin)
Fuuinjutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Close range (0-5m)
User: Sandaime Hokage

Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn enemy forever!!

This ultimate Fuuinjutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the target's soul for all eternity. Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. Because of this technique so secret, even a shinobi like Orochimaru didn't know about, the late Sandaime is now entombed in eternal darkness, seemingly never to see the sunlight again...

For those who've seen this shape, no technique exists to allow them to escape the Realm of the Dead~~

[picture of the Death God appearing above the Sandaime Hokage and his two Shadow Clones]
↑Dressed in white clothing, the grotesque Death God appears...!! Only when a shinobi has invoked the technique, can this figure be seen.

↓On the arm of the Death God which holds the rosary surfaces a Cursed Seal. This arm penetrates the user's body, and pulls the target's soul out.
[picture of the Death God's arm]

[picture of the Death God's face]
↑The soul of the person possessed by the Death God, is eaten, and faces a Fate of eternal, continuous anguish.

It was never stated explicitly who developed the technique in the manga/databook/fanbook. Sandaime referred to it as "the jutsu of the hero who once upon a time, saved this village" when describing it to Orochimaru. This statement only constitutes proof that it is a signature technique of the Fourth which is correct because he used it to seal up the Kyuubi.

Just because they didn't show it on panel doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm pretty sure Sakura destroyed more then one puppet (If your referring to Sandiame KazeKage). Just like how they didn't show the sparing battle between Sugetsu and Kisame, if we're going to go by this logic then i could tell you Kisame and Sugetsu didn't really fight and they just one huge conversation reminiscing on old times because they didn't show it on panel. Of course then Sugetsu would say "Oh yeah we didn't finish our game!" because he just remembered his goal.

I was referring to the 100 puppets. Counting the puppet that Sasori wears and the Third Kazekage, Sakura only had 3 puppets taken down.

6 - 273 Page 04 [Chiyo]
8 - 273 Page 05 [Chiyo]
26 - 273 Page 06-07 [Chiyo]
1 - 273 Page 08 [Sakura]
1 - 273 Page 08 [Chiyo]
1 - 273 Page 09 [Chiyo]
3 - 273 Page 11 [Chiyo]

45 of 100 definitively destroyed by Chiyo
1 of 100 definitively destroyed by Sakura
17 of 100 shown surrounding Sakura and One of Ten Puppets in 273 Page 12 <- disabled after Sasori switched body so we're sure that these were not destroyed

In all, 37 of 100 were unaccounted for. Statistically it is highly unlikely that Sakura could even match the numbers taken out by Chiyo.

That still doesn't change the fact he was at his limit as well, again anyone's game.

Facts are based on what the manga illustrated or what Kishimoto indicated. It's not up to YOU to decide that Sasori is at his limit.

274 - Page 15 <- Sakura got stabbed in a vital spot. "Even without the poison, she'll be dead soon enough. There's too much blood loss" - Sasori

274 - Page 05 <- "The poison's making me immobile... I can't control chakra properly..." - Sakura on effects of the poison. Chiyo was poisoned in 273 Page 09 so it's unlikely for her to be able to continue fighting.

275 - Page 13-16

Sakura: "...You did it... Chiyo-sama. Incredible...
Chiyo: "No... ...The one who really should have been defeated was me..."
Chiyo: "Sasori saw my last attack... But... somehow, he couldn't avoid it. It gave him a small opening..."

Given the situation that both Sakura and Chiyo were in, they couldn't have continued the fight. Chiyo herself acknowledged that she would have lost.

[Sasuke]

New Naruto Chapter out super early...Lol


Holy shit, Madara's warehouse...also...Awwww... Mini-Karin <3

[Samanosuke]

Sakura better be trolling... :l

Lol, are you seriously using this as part of an argument? Just because they didnt show Sasuke butt-pounding Orochimaru, doesnt mean it did or didnt happen (Whatever floats your boat). Just because we didnt see Sasuke's 2.5 years of training from Naruto to Naruto: Shippuden doesnt mean it didnt happen either (But he did train for those 2.5 years, we just don't know the training methods. Obviously it included Karen. What point are you trying to make?).

Main Point: Dont use "Just because they didnt show it, doesnt mean it didnt happen". Its a bad argument.

Seriously, your post what pointless there

[Sepher of Fire]

Sakura's a slut.

Just wanted to say that.

[Zegethys]

Very true, also, I hate Sasuke even more now.

[Sasuke]

What? Thats not fair Zeg, I didnt do anything =3.

Lol, I dont hate Sasuke. My room mate even questioned my morals when I said I would do the same if someone got taken hostage (last weeks chapter of Naruto)

[Sepher of Fire]

Originally Posted by Sasuke

What? Thats not fair Zeg, I didnt do anything =3.

Lol, I dont hate Sasuke. My room mate even questioned my morals when I said I would do the same if someone got taken hostage (last weeks chapter of Naruto)

I can't possibly imagine why.

[Sasuke]

New chapter..boring as fuck..but next week will be pretty interesting..unless there is a shit ton of uninteresting talk...=/

Was Karin really trying to plea with Sasuke so he wouldnt attack? Or was she trying to warn Sakura?

[so-ri-]

I think Karin realizes that Sakura loves Sasuke as much as she does.

And let's face it, they're both equally boring >>;

In any case; it does look like Kakashi is about to slap Sasuke silly being the stand-in Hokage and all.

Besides, Sasuke is

1. Out of chakra (almost) [I dunno how he keeps pulling off those Chidori's though]

2. Out of Sharingan and "Hate" Powa. So I dunno how Kishi is gonna get his favourite fanboy-character out of this one.

Personally I think that a deux ex machina will happen once Naruto in Sage Mode arrives on the scene.

That's probably where the power Itachi left inside Naruto will reveal itself as well....

Coz let's face it, Itachi has one trap card face down on the field still, he's not 'out' completely yet =P

And if he can store an Amatsu inside Sasuke, he might have something equally strong inside Naruto.

But seriously, if Naruto pops out a Sharingan - Tsukiyomi I'm gonna slap a ho'

[Mikaru]

Kumo sucks, Nidaime probably raped their dead corpses before dying from exhaustion at all the raping.

[Sasuke]

Oh Mike! We almost went by without Kumo-frenzy..why must you do thiiiis? lol

Sasuke really should be out of chakra by now. I dont know how he's getting another chidori out, unless he somehow became so proficient with chidori that it takes a tiny amount to do now. Yeah..I assume Naruto is going to bust on scene when its looking really horrendous for Sasuke and say some beautiful words and Sasuke is either going to get away, get knocked out and taken by Konoha, or bite off more than he can chew and fight harder.

Some people on another forum I go to think Sasuke is an idiot for thinking he can defeat Kakashi (not just in his current state, but like..ever) but I mean..I see it as just big talk. He's going a bit crazy at the moment and is just talking.Then again, he could honestly think he can beat Kakashi..but whatever lol. Its going to be a nice chapter if we get to see more techniques from Kakashi.

When was the last time we saw a new jutsu from him? Lightning Dog thing against Pain?

[Mikaru]

If Kakashi dies, I'm seriously done with Naruto

[Zegethys]

Sasuke better not freaking win, he just got done barely beating danzo, his eyes are overused, his chakra has to be near nil, fighting a fresh kakashi >.>. If sasuke was fresh now that he has itachi's sharinghan powers, id give him at least a little possibility due to Susano and amaterasu, but he shouldnt be able to pull that out again, so hopefully sasuke will finally be put in the ground (i know it wont happen, but i want it to T-T)

[Samanosuke]

I think Karin realizes that Sakura loves Sasuke (Samanosuke: And Sasuke rejected her AGAIN by attempting to kill her :P) as much as she does.

And let's face it, they're both equally boring >>;

In any case; it does look like Kakashi is about to slap Sasuke silly being the stand-in Hokage and all.

Besides, Sasuke is

1. Out of chakra (almost) [I dunno how he keeps pulling off those Chidori's though] (Incorrect, Sasuke chakra is fully restored after biting Karin so he's basecailly 50%-70% st fullstrength. His Sharingan however has drastically weakened

2. Out of Sharingan and "Hate" Powa. So I dunno how Kishi is gonna get his favourite fanboy-character out of this one.

Personally I think that a deux ex machina will happen once Naruto in Sage Mode arrives on the scene.

That's probably where the power Itachi left inside Naruto will reveal itself as well....

Coz let's face it, Itachi has one trap card face down on the field still, he's not 'out' completely yet =P

And if he can store an Amatsu inside Sasuke, he might have something equally strong inside Naruto.

But seriously, if Naruto pops out a Sharingan - Tsukiyomi I'm gonna slap a ho'

If Kakashi dies, I'm seriously done with Naruto

Kakashi will die and Madara will take his Sharingan~

[AsugetRanzo]

Originally Posted by Mikaru

If Kakashi dies, I'm seriously done with Naruto

^ What he said.
Especially if Sasuke is the one to kill him.

[Kazuo]

Didn't Kishimoto say something a while ago saying this was going to be the year of Kakashi? Still, if Kakashi dies, I'm done.

[Sasuke]

Yeah, this is the Kakashi Blue Year supposedly.

[jackportd]

Hello guys

Although I am looking forward to seeing more of Suigetsu's power. Despite the other characters, he's very interesting, especially his water-body.

Have a good time.

[Sasuke]

Go fuck yourself Bot.

[LanderZ]

That being said, while offtopic, he promoted the conversation more than most of you live-folks have done...

[Sepher of Fire]

Discussion picks up every time a new chapter is released. This thread should be picking up steam later today/tomorrow.

[Sasuke]

Yeah, the discussion thread picks up when new chapter is out, and lasts for 2 or 3 days..and then waits for the next chapter. It gets super active however when things relating to Kumo come up that would need some..further discussion (see a few weeks ago, the Bounty Hunter Kumo shit) lol

[Sasuke]

double post: Damnit Sakura...you could've ended this..but you had to get your ass saved again by someone.

Shit..is Itachi's gift going to be used next chapter? I really hope so..

[Samanosuke]

Spoiler

FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!! THE EYES OF A COLD BLOODED UZUMAKI HAS AWAKENED!!!

Sasuke literally just dug his own Grave to the tenth power, Naruto has just witness Sasuke about to kill the girl he loved and now Cold eyes stare a blinded Uchiha!

Ladies and Gentlemen it has finally come! Next Chapter! Naruto Vs The Sauce! PLACE YOUR BETS NOW

[Sasuke]

Those honestly dont look like cold eyes to me. Sasuke is certainly suffering from blindness though, so Naruto should have an easier time in this fight regardless. But come on now, love has nothing when compared to the rivalry/friendship/bromance that Sasuke and Naruto have.

[Sepher of Fire]

Damn, Naruto's looking pretty manly. Also,



Why the fuck can't I stop laughing at this?